Thoughts About Toronto/Pensacola
I received this question and thought I would post my response since I am sure others also might want to know.Question: Please tell me your thoughts and/or opinion of Brownsville & Toronto and the "revival" that is occuring. I have doubts that it is of God. Pam's Answer: You have asked me a question on a controversial topic--one that has strong opinions on both sides. But before I answer, and I will answer, let me just ask this: if someone differs from your opinion on this, what is your response toward that person? Do you write them off? Do you pray based on the Word or on your opinion? Are you looking at ALL the evidence? Hank Hanegraff has a book out called Christianity in Crisis. I knew it was controversial but I was going to read it anyway to try and see both sides, in case there was something I could learn. I try to keep up somewhat with what is happening. I went to my Bible bookstore and began to thumb through it. He spoke of ministers that I knew quite a bit about. He took little snippets of what they said and made a whole doctrine out of it and then accused them. He lied. He took old statements, many if not most of which were corrected, and never let them forget they made an "error" and labeled them false prophets, thus dooming them, and by doing that judged them. Jesus had comments on judging--he said with the same measure you judge, it will be measured to you. Jesus wasn't playing. He told Pharisees that they were going to hell. Jesus SAID that. The Pharisees were "perfect." The common man was "lesser" and "ignorant;" they thanked God that "they were not like other men," but Jesus said they were not justified. The disciples didn't do things according to tradition. Later, they even spoke in unknown tongues and were accused of being drunk. But God birthed His Church with that group. Let me ask this: if I told you that you should only wear gray and white clothes, and that anything else was sin, would you do it? Wouldn't you rather say that you could dress the way you wanted to, as that is something that is in your dominion to do? Were the disciples always perfect? Did not one or two have a doctrine of "Let us bring down fire on them, Jesus!" Was unfaithfulness in their character or even another way than the Cross? Yes, it was. But they later got it right. And who was the first to have grace? Was it not Jesus? Jesus said, "IF you LOVE Me, KEEP My Commandments." Is not bearing false witness one of those Commandments? How did Jesus say to judge someone? He said to judge one by its fruit. What is the fruit of the Holy Spirit, the evidence of His work? It is Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self-Control. Are we to judge people as individuals or as groups? How does God judge them? Do groups of people get saved or do individuals? Of course it is individuals. Do we judge souls or do we judge actions, and when we do judge do we do it with the absolute authority of God? No, we are not God and He is the Final Judge. Do we judge actions? Yes, we do and we do it through the laws of the land, which should represent the Word of God but often do not--even in good old America. :( I have not been to Toronto or Pensacola but I have friends who have. I have been to Rodney Howard-Browne and here is my opinion. Since I have had holy laughter before, I would have to say that I did see holy laughter there. But I also saw laughter in the flesh. The service was his to handle any way he chose. No one forced me to be there. (Thank God we still have freedom in America.) I heard his preaching and to me, at least 95% of it was right. I am not the last word on that, but of what I know of the Bible, he was not off. In other words, I leave 5% for my error or his that I couldn't see. I did not get holy laughter and it did bug me to see people laughing while he was preaching and I personally did not get "the giggles." But, when he made an altar call for Jesus, an incredible number went forward--to my amazement. So God is doing something beyond my understanding. They didn't go up to get the giggles, they went up to make a profession of faith and commitment to Jesus. Other people whom I respect for their accomplished work in the Kingdom (and I would call that work soul winning, Bible and discipleship training, and healing) have been tremendously blessed through these meetings. Bondages have broken off of people's lives. So I notice that and see the goodness and don't fight it. My public stand has and is this: I believe that some of the manifestations are from God. I believe some are not. But one of the fruits of the Spirit is self control and self discipline and if people do not have that, then I say it's not of God. People on both sides get mad at me when I say that because they want me to lump it all as all good or all wrong, but I cannot do that. I have seen lives change for the better. But I have also seen people who get into "the Happening" and do their own thing, and then call it "God" or the "Movement" or the "Program" and then blame it for the wrong rather than themselves. It's just like blaming denominations. Denominations don't answer to God, individuals do, and there are good and bad in all of them. I have seen real miracles through the manifestations and I have seen flesh--and Satan will take advantage of the flesh. It's easier for many to judge than to pray and ask God for training in His discernment. In my early days of Spirit filled walking, I got into the flesh. The love of God corrected me. Just because I was corrected, did not mean I got out of the Spirit filled life. I had to get an understanding of the gifts. We do not exalt gifts. A man can use a hammer and a saw to build a house or tear it down. The Spiritual gifts are only the tools. I don't know all there is to know about architecture and have to leave some of the building to faith. So it is in the Kingdom. I may not understand all there is to know, especially in the supernatural. I know more than I used to, though, and can discern if it is Kingdom building or destruction. If it is neither, I don't worry about it. Souls were saved, bondages broke off of people. Joy was in people who had pain. There were people in the flesh but I saw more good than evil. Back to my bottom line again: People can have manifestations, but are they better or worse for them? If they have no self control, no joy, no love, then it's not of God. But if they do, go Jesus! I hope that helped. Thank you for asking that question. Just because people say they were/are blessed is not enough. I like what a friend of mine so often says, "It's not how high you jump, but how straight do you walk when you hit the ground?" Is there Kingdom fruit? Are there souls saved and living for God? Is there love (on both sides of the opinions)? Love is not judgment on the part of people. GOD judges His way to preserve His Kingdom!
I got a response! Response: Hi, and thank you for answering me. One thing that I appreciate is that when you respond your responses are so thorough and thought provoking. To answer your question, if someone differs from my opinion I do not write them off. People believe what they believe and I could be wrong. I do consider myself teachable, so I listen. And sometimes we just have to agree to disagree. I was told not to visit your website because I wasn't strong enough for the, basically, spiritual warfare I would have to encounter. I did not adhere to that advise and I am glad that I did not. I appreciate you taking the time to correspond with me with straightforward answers and no flowery "spiritual stuff". I guess some folks think me weak because I am hurting and struggling. I am not weak. For "my" strength comes directly from the Lord. I know this to be true because I am still alive. The Lord wants me here. I don't always want to be here but not my will but His. I have not been to church in at least 2 months. I miss the fellowship but have found it very difficult to support some of the things I see going on. Perhaps I am guilty of judging and I am seeking God on that and did so immediately after reading your response. I was saved in the late 80's, and my church experiences up to now have been bitter sweet. God has allowed me to see some things and go through some things so that my dependence would be on Him and Him only. He moved me and my husband to this itty bitty town where I basically knew no one and there were no crutches. In a bible study I questioned the Pastor or what he was teaching. This was done with respect. I did not understand how what he was saying was grounded in the word. He later told me that he changed it so that I would be ok. Please. The Word is sharp and it cuts - but if cutting is what I need then so be it. As it turns out, he was teaching from one of the books written by a pastor that was mentioned in "Crisis in Chrisitianity". I have read that book. I experienced a lot of what was in that book. I've been hurt by ministers. Used by ministers. I take responsibility in that I allowed it to happen in my overzealous need to be needed and to "work" for God's love. But in restrospect I also know that I was not protected by the undershepherd which I thought was part of their job. In the church where I am registered as a member, but feel no connection, they had a guest minister who told us that if we were to walk in and see our pastor having sex with someone other than his wife we were to stay at that church and pray. I don't get it. Unless God spoke to me in an audible voice to stay, I would want no part of it. Two years ago, the Lord called me to preach. I did for awhile. I love the Word, I love studying it, but in the process I found discrepancy in what the Word says and what the church was doing. I believe that as soon as someone is saved that they are filled by the Holy Spirit and that not everyone will speak in tongues (that is scriptural). I have been blessed with that gift but stop using it for awhile because I began to doubt. I also believe that I have discernment though I sometimes doubt. But God has been faithful to reveal things to me and show me that it is Him. We (my husband and I ) study together and frequently with friends who come to visit. Right now, I don't know anything. I don't know where I belong, what to do except what is in front of me. When I first came to the Lord it was so simple. Then I started learning formulas for this and that, rules & regulations, proper & improper ways of doing things, people and their words for you and their needing to control. I have gone back to the basics. Just a simple trust in Him. Just do what He says and then trust Him. My faith and trust in ministers, pastors, prophets is minimal. I don't know why I am telling you all of this but I am. I am not looking for a perfect church, for if there were one, as soon as I walked in, it would all change. :) I am just hungry for the truth. That is all I want is the truth. I don't need bells and whistles. And it concerns me that it seems like people are looking more for the experience than God. God's peace and blessings to you. Thank you! Pam's response: First a note to the reader--There is so much "shepherd abuse," is it any wonder the Church in America is a mess? -- and therefore the nation, and therefore the wrath of God hanging over our heads!!! I am sharing this personal story because it is not isolated--it is happening all over the place! Pray for the thousands like this dear soul--not in arrogance, but in the fear of God. Thank you!
God bless your heart!!!! Oh, child, you have been abused, but really, we all have. There are nuts out there that are "pastors," "ministers" and "prophets." Just because they have a sign on the door does not make them a pastor or I guess even, a real church. Sadly, and hopefully, there will be enough Word around to get some saved. That is a bunch of GARBAGE about "just pray for the pastor," if he is seen having sex with someone not his wife. Try casting the devil of him to keep him from going to hell! People do sin and God does offer grace but He never says that wrong is right. But He does forgive by His Spirit, and not on the authority of man alone but by the Blood Jesus shed on the Cross. There is great power in that forgiveness but you can't sin and call it God. I hate to say it, but if someone said that, they are probably covering up something. I am not accusing, but righteous people don't talk that way--the ignorant and unbelieving (heathens) do. I think it's funny and sad that you were told not to come to my site. I am curious as to who would say that, but it doesn't matter. The power of God is able to reveal things. That can bug some, and thus the "warfare" I'm sure, but it is the Spirit of God that reveals hearts, not men. God loves people. I believe in the local congregation because we need each other, but God is not legalistic except for you to learn. ("The Law is our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."" Galatians 3:24-25) I don't know about you, but I need frequent refresher courses! And the Bible says we are not to forsake the assemblying of ourselves together. Those who really seek the truth will find it--they will keep on pressing. I see you doing that in your noble work and I applaude and salute you--it shows you are really of the Body of Christ. I am going to use some of our correspondence to make a web page on this subject. I hope you don't mind. Don't worry, I won't use any names or personal references--others have or will ask the same questions. Jesus came to set the captive free and destroy the works of the devil! Let me leave you with this Scripture, for it applies to you: "Nevertheless, the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal--The Lord knoweth them that are His. And--Let everyone that nameth the Name of Christ depart from iniquity." 2 Timothy 2:19 Thank you, you have blessed me. God has beautiful people. You are one. In His Love, Pam Clark And I pray this will be a ministry to all. I cry out to God for His precious seed, His precious people who are doing their best to get it right. God help us all. We need it! Pray for righteous leadership.
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